Comments on: The Concert of Democracies is a stupid idea. http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/ progressive politics from Madison, Wisconsin Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:59:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Jason http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101110 Jason Sat, 11 Aug 2007 08:29:19 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101110 What I mean my Legitimizing goes along the same lines as we legitimize them if the President talks to them if you understand what I mean What I mean my Legitimizing goes along the same lines as we legitimize them if the President talks to them if you understand what I mean

]]> By: Ben http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101106 Ben Thu, 09 Aug 2007 18:36:28 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101106 I can't name any politican, in either party, who thinks the UN should be the final arbiter of our foreign policy. But goodwill among other nations and an international system that has us at the top, is in our national interest, and the UN is one way in which we can maintain that system. Of course we ignore the UN if it's necessary, but as a general point, our national security is enhanced in the long run by having the UN around, even if we are occassionally restrained in our actions. The UN's role in "legitimzing dictators and thugs" is minimal: those governments are in power anyways, and their maintenance of power is determined by domestic concerns. But the UN does have an important role to play in building international coalitions to overthrow dictators and thugs when necessary (e.g. Bosnia, or East Timor, or Sierra Leone). I can’t name any politican, in either party, who thinks the UN should be the final arbiter of our foreign policy. But goodwill among other nations and an international system that has us at the top, is in our national interest, and the UN is one way in which we can maintain that system.

Of course we ignore the UN if it’s necessary, but as a general point, our national security is enhanced in the long run by having the UN around, even if we are occassionally restrained in our actions.

The UN’s role in “legitimzing dictators and thugs” is minimal: those governments are in power anyways, and their maintenance of power is determined by domestic concerns. But the UN does have an important role to play in building international coalitions to overthrow dictators and thugs when necessary (e.g. Bosnia, or East Timor, or Sierra Leone).

]]> By: Jason http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101105 Jason Thu, 09 Aug 2007 18:12:08 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101105 Oh and for the record I agree with you when it comes to the Concert of Democracies. I mean why in the world do we need another international body when the ones we have don't work at all except to legitimize a bunch of dictators and Thugs. Oh and for the record I agree with you when it comes to the Concert of Democracies. I mean why in the world do we need another international body when the ones we have don’t work at all except to legitimize a bunch of dictators and Thugs.

]]> By: Jason http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101104 Jason Thu, 09 Aug 2007 18:09:11 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101104 The problem I have with the UN is alot of people think is should be the final arbitar when it comes to our foreign policy and I think that is totally wrong. If we need to do something in our interests as in National Security why in world should we have to go to the UN first? The problem I have with the UN is alot of people think is should be the final arbitar when it comes to our foreign policy and I think that is totally wrong. If we need to do something in our interests as in National Security why in world should we have to go to the UN first?

]]> By: Ben http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101103 Ben Thu, 09 Aug 2007 17:04:19 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101103 I'm not claiming that the UN is especially effective or useful. In some circumstances it is, and in some circumstances it isn't. It is what it is. But it's more useful than a Concert of Democracies would be, and it's more useful than nothing. I’m not claiming that the UN is especially effective or useful. In some circumstances it is, and in some circumstances it isn’t. It is what it is. But it’s more useful than a Concert of Democracies would be, and it’s more useful than nothing.

]]> By: Jason http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101102 Jason Thu, 09 Aug 2007 08:16:44 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101102 I am debating that on a whole the UN is baisically Usless and can't get anything done. I am debating that on a whole the UN is baisically Usless and can’t get anything done.

]]> By: Ben http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101101 Ben Thu, 09 Aug 2007 06:50:25 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101101 Yes, the Human Rights Council is a joke, and yes, the General Assembly has passed racist and anti-Semitic resolutions, and yes, many nations have hypocritical foreign policies that claim to be in favor of good things (disarmament, say), while in fact they are only in favor of getting a bigger piece of the pie for themselves. I don't disagree with any of that. But the UN has exactly one group which has any power, and that group -- France, Britain, Russia, China, and the United States -- is far more pro-American than the world at large, and is heavily weighted in favor of the western liberal democracies. If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn't get as favorable a organization. Are you disputing this, or are you disputing the idea that the UN can be a useful foreign policy tool, or what? Yes, the Human Rights Council is a joke, and yes, the General Assembly has passed racist and anti-Semitic resolutions, and yes, many nations have hypocritical foreign policies that claim to be in favor of good things (disarmament, say), while in fact they are only in favor of getting a bigger piece of the pie for themselves.

I don’t disagree with any of that.

But the UN has exactly one group which has any power, and that group — France, Britain, Russia, China, and the United States — is far more pro-American than the world at large, and is heavily weighted in favor of the western liberal democracies. If we were starting from scratch, we wouldn’t get as favorable a organization.

Are you disputing this, or are you disputing the idea that the UN can be a useful foreign policy tool, or what?

]]> By: Jason http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101099 Jason Thu, 09 Aug 2007 05:20:11 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101099 How good can an Orginization that has IRAN on the Disarmament committiee, North Korea and China on the Human Rights Counsel be. like I said the UN is a Joke not to mention they are full of Anti Semitism and hatred for the freedoms of the USA. Like I said the US was a good Idea, and in order for it to work more in our favor we need a very strong Ambassador like we have now with John Bolton. How good can an Orginization that has IRAN on the Disarmament committiee, North Korea and China on the Human Rights Counsel be.
like I said the UN is a Joke not to mention they are full of Anti Semitism and hatred for the freedoms of the USA. Like I said the US was a good Idea, and in order for it to work more in our favor we need a very strong Ambassador like we have now with John Bolton.

]]> By: Ben http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101098 Ben Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:46:58 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101098 Leaving aside things the aren't relevant to this discussion -- global disease prevention, vaccination programs, peacekeeping missions, the CFC treaty, etc -- the UN is a forum for international diplomacy, and for better or worse, it holds the position of respected arbiter of international law. UN sanction of some military action provides the war legitimacy in the eyes of the world, which is a very helpful thing in terms of diplomacy, alliance-building, and leveraging the results of the war into a favorable political settlement (see, e.g. Bosnia). It's not like the UN is the be-all and end-all of international relationships, but it's a helpful tool for American foreign policy. To be a hegemon acting in the interests of the world community is far more reassuring to the rest of the world than a hegemon with a messianic streak and a penchant for picking fights with people. So -- the UN can provide our foreign policy with the very useful armor of "upholder of international law". And it is more pro-American and more amenable to our interests than any other conceivable body that would be able to furnish that armor. That combination makes it a good thing. Leaving aside things the aren’t relevant to this discussion — global disease prevention, vaccination programs, peacekeeping missions, the CFC treaty, etc — the UN is a forum for international diplomacy, and for better or worse, it holds the position of respected arbiter of international law.

UN sanction of some military action provides the war legitimacy in the eyes of the world, which is a very helpful thing in terms of diplomacy, alliance-building, and leveraging the results of the war into a favorable political settlement (see, e.g. Bosnia).

It’s not like the UN is the be-all and end-all of international relationships, but it’s a helpful tool for American foreign policy. To be a hegemon acting in the interests of the world community is far more reassuring to the rest of the world than a hegemon with a messianic streak and a penchant for picking fights with people.

So — the UN can provide our foreign policy with the very useful armor of “upholder of international law”. And it is more pro-American and more amenable to our interests than any other conceivable body that would be able to furnish that armor. That combination makes it a good thing.

]]> By: Jason http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-concert-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101097 Jason Wed, 08 Aug 2007 13:09:05 +0000 http://www.badgerblues.org/2007/08/06/the-council-of-democracies-is-a-stupid-idea/#comment-101097 The UN was a good IDEA but like alot of good ideas it has failed. The UN right now is a Joke. name one thing they have done that is good The UN was a good IDEA but like alot of good ideas it has failed.

The UN right now is a Joke. name one thing they have done that is good

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